High School Basketball Forum: Open Gyms - 20 contact days

Replies (91)

• I'm sensing you have some sort of axe to grind here. Can you please give us a little more information?....Does your kid not play enough? Do you hate the coach? Is this a rival school? Is it cutting into football practice? Etc....

  -- Posted by BonScott on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 9:02 AM

• @BonScott I'm thinking the same thing.. or his rival school is better than him every year

  -- Posted by Ohweeohahaha on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 9:06 AM

• Are you kidding? I'm a new coach and am just trying to follow the rules. My A.D. told me open gyms in the summer count toward the 20 days of contact during the summer. A neighbor coach told me he didn't think that was correct. So I contacted MSHSAA and was told my A.D. was correct and they do count toward the 20. I'm shocked the two of you attacked me for mentioning this. I thought rules were meant to be followed.

  -- Posted by taxpayer parent on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 10:07 AM

• why take it to a message board and whine about it?

  -- Posted by dexterdoesitall on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 10:12 AM

• I thought I was being helpful. Hopefully, some will read the post and check further into the rule so they don't unintentionally find themselves in violation.

  -- Posted by taxpayer parent on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 10:32 AM

• Pretty thin skinned for a coach. I was "attacking" anyone. Just wanted a little clarification. Thanks.

  -- Posted by BonScott on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 12:15 PM

• *wasn't

  -- Posted by BonScott on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 12:51 PM

• So if a gym is "open" as in unlocked for players to come in and work out on their own, or if more then one player comes in, does that still count? If the head varsity coach is not present then it doesn't count? What if its not on school property? If you are a young coach, you figure out ways to get your kids work in. When it comes to basketball, these contact days are completely bogus. In some communities having the gym open for kids to play is the safest and most important part of the day or evening.

  -- Posted by uncommon_sense on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 12:53 PM

• When I was in school our gym was open Monday through Friday from 8:00am to 4:00pm, and the coach was never there.

  -- Posted by BonScott on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 1:21 PM

• No thin skin here. I wasn't the one suggesting someone had an axe to grind. But, to your credit, you admit rules aren't important and it's ok to ignore them.

  -- Posted by taxpayer parent on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 3:27 PM

• Well, I never admitted that. So please don't put words in my mouth...Thanks.

  -- Posted by BonScott on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 3:47 PM

• Open gyms are not something that the state patrols. They have been abused for as long as I remember and that goes back 40 years. The only way a school will get their hand slapped is if the school's administration does it or if another school reports them.

  -- Posted by heshootshescores on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 6:34 PM

• This is what I love about sports. If a coach doesn't do enough in the summer, they will get hammered. Now another coach is complaining that another another coach is doing too much! Just have to love sports! Haha

  -- Posted by Radar99 on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 7:24 PM

• I guess I'm confused with the definition of "open gym"....If the coach is not there, then who cares? I would call that; kids working on their game in the off season. Which should be applauded since it doesn't hardly happen anymore. The days of the "gym rat" are gone.

  -- Posted by BonScott on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 7:34 PM

• Exactly Bon!!

  -- Posted by IndianPride on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 7:59 PM

• Kids can go to the local community center all they want, but are not allowed to unlimited use of school equipment or facilities by law. I doubt that any kid who goes to a school facility to shoot would be reported. The problem is that many open gyms are open to players only and not the public or even all athletes. Again these things are not usually reported and are left up to the school administration to enforce

  -- Posted by heshootshescores on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 8:27 PM

• heshoots! That may be correct but it's unfortunate that a kid that wants to workout can't get in their own gym.

  -- Posted by IndianPride on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 8:53 PM

• I like how kids go to "open gym" and somehow they learn three new inbounds plays. 😀

  -- Posted by JoJo Starbuck on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 9:44 PM

• I agree Pride. This is more of a problem where schools are located outside an area that has no Community Center or other courts in their home towns. Bigger towns have places for the gym rat to go if they really want to. LOL JOJO

  -- Posted by heshootshescores on Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 10:00 PM

• So if other people from community are playing as well and the high school coach is there, is that a contact day?

  -- Posted by uncommon_sense on Tue, Jun 13, 2017, at 7:16 AM

• Yes, it is, according to MSHSAA. If the gym is open and a basketball is present (their exact words) during the summer, it counts as one of the 20 contact days. I'm not complaining about other coaches abusing the rule. I doubt most understand it.

  -- Posted by taxpayer parent on Tue, Jun 13, 2017, at 8:05 AM

• Some coaches will deliberately abuse rules. Open gyms and pick up games in the offseason are what every developing player needs. We shouldn't be penalizing the kids who want to play in the summer and get better. Exactly right that no one is on "open gym patrol" to monitor if a coach is instructing, so many do abuse. Former Arcadia Valley Coach Bone told me once that ex NBAer Chris Carr never missed a day in the gym in 4 yrs of high school. He said it didn't matter if it was Thanksgiving, Christmas, or 4th of July, Chris would be knocking on his door first thing in the morning for the keys to the gym. Guess it all comes down to ethics of the coach. Plus kids today have a hard time organizing anything among themselves. They have to have an adult do it for them and make a schedule.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Tue, Jun 13, 2017, at 8:23 AM

• Bogey, the last two sentences are spot on. That is a major problem with our society in my opinion and it needs to be corrected.

  -- Posted by BonScott on Tue, Jun 13, 2017, at 9:01 AM

• Definition of Contact Day: A day of contact is defined as any date on which any coaching or instruction in the skills and techniques of any sport takes place, regardless of whether activity-specific equipment is used. Any of the following would count as a day of contact – competition, practice, review or chalkboard sessions, open facility, camp/clinic, group lessons, private lessons. Conditioning/Strength activities will not count as a contact day, as long as the activity adheres to the provisions outlined in By-Law 3.14.7.a - e. Simply being at a school facility will not count as a day of contact unless both coach and student are there and the sport (as defined above) is taking place.

  -- Posted by johndaniel on Tue, Jun 13, 2017, at 9:38 AM

• That sounds pretty clear to me...Go shoot the ball kids at your high school gym!

  -- Posted by BonScott on Tue, Jun 13, 2017, at 9:44 AM

• Most school districts don't want kids using their facilities unsupervised due to law suits.

  -- Posted by heshootshescores on Tue, Jun 13, 2017, at 11:27 AM

• That right there is yet another problem in our society. Common sense has left the building!

  -- Posted by BonScott on Tue, Jun 13, 2017, at 11:32 AM

• I concur with most of the general consensus so far. MSHSAA must not really enforce this rule of which you speak; otherwise, one would think that more scrutiny would be given to it. I'm sure there are several other "rules" that MSHSAA doesn't strictly enforce as well, like older athletes/alumni coming in and scrimmaging against a high school team at an open gym, practice, or jamboree. Nowadays, having a lot of open gyms is a great way to get teenagers off their phones and off social media and into something that's better for them, physically, mentally and socially. I get following the rules and going by the book, but there are several laws outside the realm of sports in the "real world" that aren't sternly enforced either.

  -- Posted by The Legend on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 3:41 AM

• I agree ,legend, well said

  -- Posted by tribe man on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 7:08 AM

• Yep, and let's not forget that MSHSAA doesn't have "rules police" patrolling school gyms in the summer looking for offenses. Someone or some school must initiate a complaint. No coach is going to stick his neck out by accusing another school of open gym violations that would be hard to prove. It's up to each coach to be ethical.

  Once I asked a MSHSAA area rep at a rules meeting about the custom of former players coming in over Christmas break to scrimmage the current HS team. I got a few chuckles from other coaches and kind of a wink and a nod reaction from the rep. He said yes, it goes on everywhere, and yes, it is not legal. Not many schools are innocent with breaking this rule by having an occasional graduate participate in practice.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 7:16 AM

• ^ is it really a big deal?

  -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 9:18 AM

• Not a big deal to me if it's a one time scrimmage vs. alumni for fun. It would be a problem if a coach was setting up scrimmages in practice vs. adult alums a couple times a week.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 12:14 PM

• Why?

  -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 12:33 PM

• #1 Teams have a limited number of games.

  #2 Organized practice vs experienced adults would be an unfair advantage if other schools cannot do same.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 1:14 PM

• I just wanna see kids in the gym as much as possible!!

  -- Posted by IndianPride on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 1:34 PM

• #1- yes, all teams do depending on the format in which they schedule.

  #2- every school is different. Every team is different. Advantages and disadvantages happen daily. I see Jackson, ND, and Cape Central kids at healthpoint every day shooting and working individually with personal trainers. That's an (huge) advantage that not all kids can afford- why should they be allowed?

  Some schools begin practice in their last period of the school day and can therefore a) practice longer b) be coached every day within the school day (pre and off seasons especially). ...not all schools do this. Why should it be allowed for certain schools?

  -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 1:53 PM

• My point is people nitpick at every little thing and whine and cry about others' success because they must've achieved it through a loophole or unfair advantage. There are unfair advantages every day in and out of school out of our control- Let's quit discecting little things like old men coming in to scrimmage a basketball team. Would it make you happy if charleston, SCC, Notre dame, and bell city vacated state championships due to "unsanctioned alumni basketball scrimmages?"

  -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 1:58 PM

• Although I do agree that some rules are dumb, rules are rules. It's become the norm of our society to disregard those rules that are deemed unnecessary through dismissing them by claiming they are being "nitpicked", "hated on", or whining. Yes, the world is unfair and yes our young people need to learn to deal with the many unfair things they encounter. But that is not the same as saying that it is okay to blatantly disregard a known, black and white rule.

  -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 2:19 PM

• Sorry you got your panties in a bunch, pimpdaddy!! I was explaining my answers to your questions, not whining or nitpicking.

  Regarding your comment about kids with personal trainers and some kids not being able to afford it, it doesn't cost anything for a kid to get a ball and find a goal to shoot on. The personal trainer thing is highly overrated. That goes back to my previous point about kids nowadays needing adults to organize everything for them. Far more kids are making it on their own. Find a kid that is shooting 2 hrs a day, 365 days a yr., and you'll find a basketball player. These kids are becoming rare compared to days of old.

  Questions answered to your satisfaction????

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 2:35 PM

• #3 It is against the rules to throw chairs...

  -- Posted by BBUBET on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 2:37 PM

• I know one thing that has changed is that kids don't shoot hoops outside anymore. Our park has a very nice court and seldom do you see anybody use it for basketball. There are no chairs on the court so that is a problem solved.

  -- Posted by heshootshescores on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 6:24 PM

• Well bogey I think those are rules that they 1) don't care to enforce or police or 2) show up as difference makers in games. 3) if kids are making it on their own so much then why do the other things matter?

  -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 7:38 PM

• In the gym getting up shots and working on ball handling or playing games in open gyms or at the park??

  What is more beneficial for advancing the skills to help your team??

  -- Posted by IndianPride on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 9:40 PM

• Both or either. Prior to all of the summer leagues and contact days, back in the day when many or even most kids only played during the season, the kids from places like Charleston were way ahead of everyone else because the kids there were playing in the park in and out of season.

  -- Posted by BTIndians on Wed, Jun 14, 2017, at 10:36 PM

• Exactly, BT. Both, IPride. The single biggest advice I give kids is "you have to teach yourself to score", and that only happens by shooting year round and on your own. Again, not many kids want to do that.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 7:42 AM

• Bogey I look forward to reading your book "how to be teach yourself to score and the outlaw of all unfair activities to ensure exact fairness."

  -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 9:30 AM

• I'll sign for a minimal fee

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 9:42 AM

• I think that might be against MSHSAA rules Bogey

  -- Posted by heshootshescores on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 10:53 AM

• Probably right. Pimp wouldn't understand anyway since it is a little more intellectual than "The Cat in the Hat".

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 3:32 PM

• Sorry bogey. I don't want to put my alma mater on probation so I'm not going to associate with you anymore. Charging "minimal fees" is immoral, wrong, and creates unfair advantages/disadvantages.

  -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 4:38 PM

• Open gyms are nothing more than regular practices off the record. So much so that if the kids for football and I assume other sports don't show up they get to run and run and run once camps start. Totally pathetic and nothing more than getting around Mshsaa. Whats sad is it is represented as summer school when in reality it's football practice and you don't HAVE to go but the reprocussions are of such magnitude (like not playing or running until they puke in the heat) that the kids cave in.

  -- Posted by 643doubleplay on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 5:52 PM

• We can keep it our secret, pimp, but fee is not minimal.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 7:18 PM

• 643 I've never heard of a school cloaking summer camp with summer school...where is this at?

  -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Thu, Jun 15, 2017, at 9:00 PM

• Highly encouraging players to attend open gyms is no different than football coaches highly encouraging football players to show up for weight lifting. If the coach can get kids to show up for both, more power to them. However, no one should be punished for not attending. That issue should be addressed with the AD.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Fri, Jun 16, 2017, at 6:52 AM

• IF they don't want to show up and work on things and get better, and gel with the team then to me they look as if they could care less about the sport.

  -- Posted by BIGELW on Fri, Jun 16, 2017, at 7:00 AM

• I agree BIGELW! They should want to be there if they expect to be a player and help their team!!

  -- Posted by IndianPride on Fri, Jun 16, 2017, at 1:54 PM

• What if they play legion baseball? Job?

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Fri, Jun 16, 2017, at 5:36 PM

• Actually Bogey, not showing up to summer weight lifting or football camp is very different than skipping a summer basketball workout. 1. Football season starts July 31st, not November. 2. Getting acclimated to the heat can save a kids life. 3. The weight room helps in all sports and is a huge preventer of injuries in football. 4. Kids who dont know their football plays can cause injury to themselves or teammates. 5. Being there all summer for football is critical to staying healthy.

  -- Posted by JoJo Starbuck on Sat, Jun 17, 2017, at 6:23 AM

• It was better when kids just played the sport in the season. You can paint it any way you want to about injuries and all of that, but we know coaches do it because they are trying to gain a competitive advantage and keep up with others who are doing the same. I don't blame the coaches. If they don't do offseason stuff, they will be not be working long. If a kid wants to play basketball year around...good for them. If a kid wants to lift weights on their own...good for them. The coach should get to go on vacation after the last game and show up for the first practice.

  -- Posted by BTIndians on Sun, Jun 25, 2017, at 7:54 AM

• Things will never go back to the good ol' days BT.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Sun, Jun 25, 2017, at 9:00 AM

• The good ol days led to this. A few coaches, some who are highly revered and in the Hall of Fame were cheating and playing summer basketball games over in Kentucky and Illinois where it was legal. They were winning and and being lauded as great coaches. Perhaps they were but they were also cheaters. We could not stop the cheaters, so we changed the rules.

  -- Posted by BTIndians on Sun, Jun 25, 2017, at 9:22 AM

• What the "taxpayer parent" conveniently omitted was the fact that both the coach of that sport and the player have to be there. If another staff member holds an open gym and the coach is not present, players can participate and it will not count as a contact day. Why they would confuse the issue on here is unknown but it doesn't serve the purpose of education or helping kids.

  -- Posted by richierich on Sun, Jun 25, 2017, at 11:10 AM

• Agree, we shouldn't penalize kids or have rules to prevent them from just wanting to get in the gym to play some basketball.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Sun, Jun 25, 2017, at 8:26 PM

• I am bothered by the comments suggesting that coaches "punish" kids who don't show up in the summer. Do we honestly believe that a coach, come the regular season is going to bench a kid ONLY because they didn't show up enough during the summer? it's more likely that the kids who don't show up in the summer aren't good enough to play and mommy and daddy use this reason to blame another for their kid

  Not playing.

  Secondly, any parent that is worth a hoot should be helping the coaches by holding their kids accountable and making sure they attend those summer contact days.

  -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Sun, Jun 25, 2017, at 8:37 PM

• I didn't conveniently omit it. My only point was that some coaches are not counting open gyms as one of their 20 summer contact days. The understanding is that the coach is the one conducting the open gym. Some of you want to think I initially started this forum to complain. I was simply pointing out the rule and the possibility that some improperly interpret it by assuming open gyms where the coach is present don't count.

  -- Posted by taxpayer parent on Sun, Jun 25, 2017, at 8:41 PM

• Perfectly said Bogey and ozzy!!

  -- Posted by IndianPride on Sun, Jun 25, 2017, at 11:01 PM
• 

  If you don't think coaches punish kids for missing meetings/offseason lifting you are wrong. Coaches "strongly encourage" that you show up, which is another way of telling you it's mandatory. When 90% of the team shows up, the 10% that doesn't certainly receives some sort of reprocussion.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Mon, Jun 26, 2017, at 1:26 PM

• BlueNote-please explain exactly how these coaches punish kids.

  -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Mon, Jun 26, 2017, at 7:07 PM
• 

  It could be 1) Unless you're undoubtedly the best athlete, lose playing time. 2) If it happens again they could be threatened with punishment (running). 3) Just having to be taken aside and talked to away from the team could be an embarrassment in itself.

  I've seen them all happen in person.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 12:30 AM

• Heaven forbid an athlete gets embarrassed...good grief.

  Maybe it should motivate them to get better?...Nope, not nowadays. The kid is entitled because he's played on a team with the word "elite" in it since he was 8. So now the coach can't talk to him about getting better because that will hurt his feelings.

  Frank Martin is correct, parents have ruined youth sports.

  -- Posted by BonScott on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 1:06 AM
• 

  If you don't think that's discouraging than I'm sorry. Not sure what the elite thing is about. This isn't youth sports, it's high school.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 2:21 AM

• I know this is what one former coach used to do and now I think has been implemented again in a local school where that former coaches assistants have now taken over.

  You are required to run so much before you get your pads to prove you are in shape. Every time you show up in the summer for weight training or other summer activities, you have that amount you have to run reduced. So those who came during the summer have little or no running to do to get their pads and those who did not come during the summer are not likely to be able to get through the conditioning..or at least want to get through the conditioning necessary, to ever receive their pads.

  Is that punishing in your opinion?

  -- Posted by BTIndians on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 6:46 AM

• Youth or high school, whatever. If a parent can dictate what a coach does or if a coach keeps their job, then that's a problem. And that's what happens in today's youth(high school) sports environment.

  -- Posted by BonScott on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 7:03 AM

• Wow BlueNote, I bet you raised some physically and mentally tough kids! You response to my question is a joke that rivals the level of Eddie Murphy stand up. You are a part of what is wrong with the adults in our world.

  -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 9:48 AM
• 

  Well, I'm not a parent. But I'm not far out of high school and I've seen kids get punished for it. If you don't believe me that's fine, but I've seen it. And no, that wouldn't be a punishment BT. That's just part of the offseason conditioning that they need to catch up on. That's what they get for skipping it. I think that's a great system.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 1:55 PM

• Okay, BlueNote, lets examine your response.

  1-You said that unless you are clearly the best athlete, you lose playing time. Can you think about what you are saying? Who determines playing time? Are you saying that as a kid on the team you could clearly tell that a kid was not receiving playing time for that reason only? You do understand what you are saying, don't you? You are saying that the coach placed no value in mandatory practice(in season). The coach made up his/her mind that the athletes work or play during practice meant nothing. Furthermore, the coach, according to your logic, knew the first week of the season what he/she would do the week before playoffs started with regards to who would play where. Never mind throwing adjustments out the window since this coach already had his/her mind made up about a kid who was talented enough to contribute, but didn't contribute because he/she did not attend enough summer workouts.

  2-Unless a kid was actually forced to do conditioning because he missed a voluntary workout, your second reason is totally invalid.

  3-Being pulled aside an embarrassed? That response speaks for itself. SOFT!!!

  Sounds to me like a whole lot of sour grapes because you didn't agree with what was going on. You would not happen to be a little spoiled and soft, yourself, would you?

  -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 2:30 PM
• 

  Your examination is being taken way out of context lol. Try again

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 4:33 PM
• 

  If the kids the best athlete at that position they will play regardless. If another kid who has just about the same amount of talent, but showed up all summer, they will get to play instead, that's just how it works. Coaches don't just make up their minds like that either.. I'm not sure how you think I said that.

  I think the more you're involved with competitive teams year after year, you see this is how they become successful. They participate in offseason workouts and if you don't, you may not receive direct punishment, but through loss of playing time or embarrassment, it's the same thing.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 4:38 PM
• 

  My senior year of high school I attended none of the non mandatory camps over the summer. While still participating in the workout program. I had a job every week day and didn't have time. When camp and practices rolled around I found myself on the scout team, with underclassmen ahead of me. The coach talked to me during a water break and told me it had been because I hadn't been to any of the camps, that were NON mandatory. Eventually I worked my way up and started both ways. My point is maybe punishment isn't the right word, but there are repercussions even for not attending non mandatory summer activities.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 4:43 PM

• If you don't think there are repercussions, you are kidding yourself.

  The coach will want to play the kid who shows up all the time.

  If you are so good you leave no doubt you are better and did not show up, you probably are going to play. If not, you are not going to play.

  Whether it is conscious or sub conscious, the coach is going to want to play the kid who has put in that time over the summer. If for nothing else, to send the message to the young kids that if they want to play, they better put in the time.

  I do know of a former very successful football coach who would not hold it against the kids who did not participate in the summer with the exception that he would let them know quickly, you can play but I do not want to hear any rah rah stuff from you. Just play hard and be a good teammate.

  I kind of liked that approach. His leaders were the kids who came all summer.

  -- Posted by BTIndians on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 5:34 PM
• 

  That's all I'm saying is that there are reprocussions for not attending the offseason program. Some people didn't understand that.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 5:49 PM

• the main point that i am disagreeing with is the point concerning playing time. You can't convince me that if a coach has has practice(in season, not summer contact days), and his most talented kids have worked hard and been coachable that he will bench one of them because they missed summer activities. I think the water gets muddied because kids or parents want to believe that their kid is better then what they really are.

  -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 6:25 PM
• 

  I have no kids, but you may be right. If a talented kid is the best at his position he will play regardless of what he's missed. But a little bit less talented kid that worked hard over the summer will get to play over a more talented kid who didn't. That is a repercussion. They expect you to be there whether it's mandatory or not.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 9:06 PM
• 

  and missing summer days does play a part in playing time at least in the beginning of a season. It was during camp for me.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 9:08 PM

• I'm having a hard time grasping why the kids who can and do attend summer workouts shouldn't be given the first opportunity to prove themselves when the season starts?? All of that is assuming they work their tails off when they are there in the summer and not just "signing in"...

  -- Posted by IndianPride on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 10:40 PM
• 

  I'm not talking about that! They do deserve first opportunity! But a kid who has to work and can't make it shouldn't be punished for it.

  -- Posted by BlueNote on Tue, Jun 27, 2017, at 11:54 PM

• During the early to mid 70's summer contact days and games were not allowed by mshaa if y'all remember but yet a few small schools in the area practiced and played each other throughout the year, my school being one of them. I had a teammate "kicked off" the basketball team for missing a week of practice in July for attending revival services as required by his parents. Just an incident I am reminded of by this thread.

  -- Posted by Ernie D on Wed, Jun 28, 2017, at 12:14 AM

• Ernie D...and you just explained why we have the rules we have now.

  The old rules could not or were not being enforced, so they are trying not to punish the schools who will follow the rules. At least not punish them as much.

  I recall one legendary basketball coach talking about his summer record back in the days when there was not supposed to be any games played. Even before team campus. You had two weeks of camp at your own school and that was it.

  This coach talked about playing 30 plus games.

  Cheater and in the Hall of Fame.

  -- Posted by BTIndians on Wed, Jun 28, 2017, at 4:33 PM

• Exactly right BT. Back in the day, football had 2 weeks of camp in the summer and kids were allowed to either play baseball or do whatever in the summer months before 2-a-day workouts began. Then all of a sudden, summertime became the wild wild west for basketball. Open gyms, closed gyms, whatever, became the norm and if you didn't "keep up with the Jones'" you considered a slacker coach and got passed up by all of your opponents.

  In order to quell all the basketball activities, MSHSAA instituted contact days (20 per sport/coach) during the summer. Which means, kids that are 3 sport athletes are constantly asked to give up their summer months (60 days, anyway) and are expected to be in attendance or get left behind. Hopefully kids will want to continue to be 3 sport athletes but those are few and far between anymore and that's a shame.

  -- Posted by robbincrosby on Wed, Jun 28, 2017, at 10:22 PM

• I think the 20 days of contact is fair, if it is truly voluntary - kids aren't penalized for missing if they have a baseball game or planned family vacation. My experience is kids love the out of town trips in summer. Keep them busy. There are lots of other bad things they could be doing with their time.

  -- Posted by Bogey Man on Thu, Jun 29, 2017, at 7:03 AM

• I know coaches who abide by the 20 contact days, which includes open gyms where they are present. But there are other coaches who open the gym every day in addition to summer leagues and shootouts and they exceed the 20 day limit by dozens of days. But if you ask they will tell you open gyms don't count against the 20 as long as no instruction is going on. That's not the case. So these coaches are either sincerely mistaken or they are cheating (like in the old days). I prefer to believe they are just misinterpreting the rule.

  -- Posted by taxpayer parent on Thu, Jun 29, 2017, at 8:13 AM