Semoball

High School Football Forum: Spread doesn't win championships

Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 12:54 PM:

State Champions from last year and what they ran offensively.

Class 1: Valle - Multiple Spread (yeah disproves my point.

Class 2: Lamar - Double Tight, Double Wing, Double Quarterback "Spinner"

Class 3: Maryville - Wing T

Class 4: Webb City - Split Back Veer

Class 5: Lee's Summit West - Multiple Pro

Class 6: Blue Springs - Multiple Pro

If you go back five years (2009-2013) only 7 teams that ran the spread have won state championships. So 7 wins out of a possible 30 games for only winning Championships in 20% of possible games.

Playing power football (veer, I, wing t) won 80% of state titles for Missouri high school teams.

Why would anyone mess with the spread given the odds of winning it all?

Replies (58)

  • *

    Valle would win Class 1 running any kind of offense.

    -- Posted by Cheesehead. on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:14 PM
  • *

    I do agree with you though, at least at the high school level. Now there are teams that make this an exception. You just have to have the right personnel to run it effectively.

    -- Posted by Cheesehead. on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:18 PM
  • Exactly, it's hard to even count them, they'd win regardless.

    If you didn't count Valle it would cut it down to 4 out of 30.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:20 PM
  • What teams make this the exception?

    They're not winning championships...Valle is the only repeat winner running the spread.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:21 PM
  • Wouldn't that actually be 4 out of 27? If u didn't count Valle means u cldnt add those to the possible 30 games right?

    -- Posted by Moose76 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:25 PM
  • Math...gets me every time.

    Yes 4 out of 27. For a whopping 15% of the time.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:28 PM
  • Bleed it's highly likely. They at least make it to the Dome.

    That's the downside of the spread, to get really good at it (especially if you want to throw) you have to spend so much time with it that it detracts from other aspects of the game (defense, special teams, toughness in general).

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:31 PM
  • They had the offense to win state his senior year. But I really don't think they had the athletes to have a defense of equal cailber. I think that bad defense allowed the offense to put up that many points. Someone would have probably found a way to slow them down enough on offense to out score them even if Ste genevieve had an average to above average defense.

    -- Posted by ThadCastle on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:33 PM
  • While I am a fan of old school, smashmouth, option football, you have to have good linemen to run that. Teams that go to the spread may not have great linemen, but good speed and good elusive runners in space. I also think most state champions win because of the talent they have, not which offense they are running.

    -- Posted by semohoops on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:38 PM
  • Defense wins championships! I know nothing about any of the teams listed above but i would be willing to bet that they had a pretty good defense to go with whatever offense they were running. I could be wrong but i doubt they got that far without a solid defense.

    -- Posted by phi365 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 1:45 PM
  • i believe Valle's main motto is defense wins championships.

    -- Posted by Blitz on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 2:06 PM
  • *

    Because spreads are effective? I feel like you run what the talent level allows you to run. If you have a lot of speed and a solid blocking scheme that meshes with that speed in the skill positions than you can run a spread effectively.

    -- Posted by Bunk on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 2:13 PM
  • That's all fine and dandy with your numbers there but you can't present it as a valid point until you come up with a percentage of teams that run the spread. Or in another way of saying it, if only 20% of the state runs spread I would consider there 'spread' to be holding its own. Did you count Webb City when they ran pistol a lot in 2012(I think) as spread or other?

    -- Posted by Bill Shakespeare on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 2:21 PM
  • If we score, we may win. If they never score, we will never lose...Defense wins championships

    Valles Motto

    -- Posted by ESPN05 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 2:22 PM
  • Bill,

    What was Webb City's base offense? Running SOME pistol doesn't make you a spread team.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 2:28 PM
  • They threw the ball 98 more times in '12 than they did last year. you also neglected to acknowledge the core of my statement.

    Most of the time you run an offense around what you have. Smaller schools will run spread more if they don't have bodies up front. If you do have the bodies up front, your probably gonna pound with them, so in reality, in the lower classes, good teams run Power because they CAN, others run spread because they HAVE to. If both styles have the bodies, both styles are effective. That has been shown.

    -- Posted by Bill Shakespeare on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 3:03 PM
  • *

    I agree with B-Shakes!

    -- Posted by BIZ MARKIE on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 3:09 PM
  • When I get a free 6 or 8 hours I will figure out what every school in the state of Missouri runs.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 3:55 PM
  • We look forward to it. Can u also look up up punting schemes of every team? I think punt coverage is a historically overlooked part of the game Boogy.

    -- Posted by cirithungol17 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 4:40 PM
  • But for the sake of numbers, in the SEMO geographic area.

    Spread teams:

    Jackson

    Sikeston

    Farmington

    Dexter

    Caruthersville

    Hayti

    Valle

    Windsor

    Desoto

    Crystal City

    North County

    Grandview

    And that's just off the top of my head, may be missing a few. That's a bunch of schools just in this region who base from the spread.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 4:42 PM
  • Out of those teams listed; several Have never been relevant and would be bad whether they ran spread, winged t, or punted every down.

    -- Posted by Bill Shakespeare on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 5:14 PM
  • I only count 3 that have never been relevant.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 6:22 PM
  • Statewide? I'd say the bottom 5 for starters. Lol

    -- Posted by Bill Shakespeare on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 8:27 PM
  • North County has NEVER been relevant?

    They've been to the Dome, so not sure how they've never been relevant.

    Crystal City had a stretch where they were in the playoffs every year for like 12 years straight, but you're right, they've NEVER been relevant...

    So what you're saying is, 3 of the teams I listed out of 12 in the local area have never been relevant.

    Or you just don't know what you're talking about, which is looking more and more likely.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Thu, Oct 2, 2014, at 8:53 PM
  • Lol people on the other side of the state couldnt locate these guys on a map. I would consider few teams from this area 'relevant' not many have won a championship, or even made multiple appearances. Semo is not relevant to the state. But you know what your talking about so you knew that

    -- Posted by Bill Shakespeare on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 1:09 AM
  • How long has the spread (or the pistol or read option) been around as an offensive scheme in comparison with more traditional offenses like the wing-T or option? That's another factor that has to be considered in determining how they measure up.

    -- Posted by Preacher Man Fan on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 8:28 AM
  • *

    Offensive and Defensive Execution wins Championships ! You can run whatever, as long as your getting kids to show up, play hard and execute the play call you will win.

    -- Posted by bootheelsports on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 9:35 AM
  • The spread has been around as long as football has been played. Originally descended from the single wing.

    Former TCU coach Dutch Meyer is credited as the father of the spread introducing it in the late 40's, early 50's.

    The spread (as we know it) started in Brownsville, Texas in the late 1920's at a private high school.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 10:32 AM
  • I couldn't locate Westran, Hamilton, Harrisonville or Kearney on a map without looking for a few minutes. Does that mean they're not relevant?

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 10:45 AM
  • Agreed mr shakespeare, i think the only semo teams that can claim multiple years of consistent competitive teams in the past 20-30 yrs are Jackson and Valle. Semo is just not a football hotbed.

    -- Posted by cirithungol17 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 11:08 AM
  • No it just means you're not very good at geography. But you are correct in the fact that it's been around a long time. These offenses cycle through, and all effective if you run em right.

    -- Posted by Bill Shakespeare on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 12:04 PM
  • Boogin may be correct on the history of the spread, but the pass-happy football game we know today goes back to the West Coast offenses of the 1980's. Prior to that, football was basically a run-oriented game. The current version of the spread run today (no huddle, hurry-up, pistol formation, read-option) is a recent innovation it seems to me.

    -- Posted by Preacher Man Fan on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 12:08 PM
  • Negatory Preach, Dutch Meyer was known to sling the ball around. Ever heard of Sammy Baugh? Davey O'Brien maybe? Both were great quarterbacks under the "Meyer spread" in the 40's.

    Tiger Ellison developed the Run&Shoot in the early 50's. You telling me the run & shoot isn't pass happy?

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 12:54 PM
  • And my geography is impeccable.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 12:56 PM
  • This a list from the MSHSAA football record book, I think it's fairly obvious to see when the spread hit Missouri High School football.

    Passing Yards

    Name, School Year Gr. G Yds. YPG

    1. Eric Czerniewski, Montgomery County 2005 Sr. 14 4407 314.8

    2. Jordan Webb, Union 2007 Jr. 11 4308 391.6

    3. Kory Faulkner, Ste. Genevieve 2008 Sr. 12 3899 324.9

    4. Eric Czerniewski, Montgomery County 2004 Jr. 11 3589 326.3

    5. Eric Czerniewski, Montgomery County 2003 So. 11 3561 323.7

    6. Jeff Handy, Blue Springs 1989 Sr. 10 3452 345.2

    7. Corbin Berkstresser, Lee's Summit 2010 Sr. 13 3383 260.2

    8. Drew Newhart, Cameron 2005 Sr. 14 3340 238.6

    9. Drew Newhart, Cameron 2004 Jr. 14 3309 236.4

    10. Ryan Howerton, Lebanon 2008 Sr. 12 3285 273.8

    All but one are from 2000 on. I think 2000 on would be a good sample to use for your "spread to championships" correlation.

    Yes spread was around way back when with the 12 orphans and TCU etc, but it was mainly used in college through the 40s and 50s.

    Air raid came about in the late 80s and early 90s, that's what you see with this record book. Many of those kids played for coaches who followed Hal Mummy and Mike Leach etc.

    Here's a Total Offense list, all from 2000 on

    Yards Total Offense

    Name, School Year Gr. G Yds.

    1. Kory Faulkner, Ste. Genevieve 2008 Sr. 12 4954

    2. Jordan Webb, Union 2007 Jr. 11 4941

    3. T.J. Moe, Fort Zumwalt West 2008 Sr 12 4586

    4. Eric Humes, West Platte 2005 Sr. 14 4399

    5. Drew Hare, Fort Zumwalt West 2010 Jr 13 4262

    6. Sean Ransburg, Harrisonville 2007 Sr. 14 4233

    7. Corbin Berkstresser, Lee's Summit 2010 Sr. 13 4074

    8. Drew Newhart, Cameron 2005 Sr. 14 3969

    9. Drew Newhart, Cameron 2004 Jr. 14 3948

    10. Darrell Jackson, Webster Groves 2003 Sr. 13 3918

    So start from 2000 and go forward. I'll even help you.

    -- Posted by MU_Tigers on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 1:04 PM
  • Boogin, those are all isolated examples. You aren't seriously going to argue that football offenses haven't changed significantly from the 1980's forward are you? It's just an historical fact that football at all levels was primarily and predominantly a running game prior to that time.

    MU_Tigers has it right.

    -- Posted by Preacher Man Fan on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 1:11 PM
  • You asked how long has the spread been around as a scheme. I told you.

    Pistol originated circa 2005.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 1:16 PM
  • Ok so we're both right! Lol.

    -- Posted by Preacher Man Fan on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 2:07 PM
  • Lol just gotta phrase your questions the right way to get the answers you want.

    I've got just the slightest literal nature in case you hadn't noticed.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 2:18 PM
  • I'm not so sure that Valle would win Class 1 with any offense. There was a huge drought of people talking about Valle winning state championships (huge = 10 years) than all of a sudden, Coach Naegar brings a spread offense that invigorates the kids. First year after not running the traditional I-formation, they get to the quarterfinals. Second year, they go to state and lose to a tough Penney team.

    Seems like a big coincidence for the emergence of dominance.

    -- Posted by blackNgold007 on Fri, Oct 3, 2014, at 7:01 PM
  • With the kids Valle has in the program right now they could get in the Dead-T and just roll people.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Sat, Oct 4, 2014, at 5:44 PM
  • *

    Boogin, the reason most teams run the spread around here is to "unload" the box in return causing mismatches. I do not mind seeing teams run the spread and actually throw 20 plus times a game or atleast run a 3:1 run pass ratio. That's not the case though, they want to run sweeps, alot of misdirection hand offs and QB keepers and throw the ball less than 10 times a game. IMO that is just setting a team up for failure once you get to the playoffs. Just for an example in 2011 Caruthersville entered the quarterfinal game running the spread in which we ran heavily out of (I think we finished the year with 5300 total yards on the ground) and a total of 800 through the air. Any coach that is in the quarterfinals should know when you play a team like that you have to stack the box and play man on the outside, they knew we were not gonna throw it that much stop the run you stop Caruthersville.

    I really think coaches are afraid or uneducated in other styles of offenses to change their offenses according to the players they have on the team. Once they have something in place they want to keep it no matter what. I know its hard to implement new styles with players that have been playing the same since 7th grade but you have to play to where your strengths are.

    -- Posted by wheresthebeef on Sun, Oct 5, 2014, at 7:04 PM
  • Maybe, but I prefer having a system to "flavor of the week" spread.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Sun, Oct 5, 2014, at 8:26 PM
  • Great point Boogy.

    -- Posted by IndianPride on Sun, Oct 5, 2014, at 8:43 PM
  • Either I'm making a lot of great points or you're being a d-bag...not sure which, since you're one of my many "fans".

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Sun, Oct 5, 2014, at 10:04 PM
  • Neither of those options!

    Geez Sheldon, you still don't understand sarcasm!!

    -- Posted by IndianPride on Sun, Oct 5, 2014, at 10:33 PM
  • Sarcasm means you were being a d-bag. It's unnecessary, why say anything at all?

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Sun, Oct 5, 2014, at 10:44 PM
  • I don't like know it all people who state their opinions, then get upset when someone has a rebuttal that contradicts their opinion.

    I couldnt care less about football but your attitude annoys me!

    -- Posted by IndianPride on Sun, Oct 5, 2014, at 10:59 PM
  • Key word in your post, OPINION. I don't get mad because people disagree, people get mad at me because I don't sugarcoat what I think.

    If you could care less about football, why post?

    As for you not liking my attitude, I'll try real hard not to lose any sleep over what you think of me.

    -- Posted by Boogin77 on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 11:51 AM
  • Boogin, your are a d-bag! Not sugarcoating here. I'm sure in your own mind you have made whatever point you were trying to make. Move on and let it go.

    -- Posted by phi365 on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 11:59 AM
  • Agreed that games are won at the line. Duzznt matter what ur running, a dominating line will make it work. I just wish the wishbone still worked, now that was fun to watch. Never understood why it got abandoned. Navy absolutely tore Zou apart with it a few years ago.

    -- Posted by cirithungol17 on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 12:31 PM
  • Boogin, people get upset with you because you are rude to them. You justify that by saying you just don't sugarcoat things. Being honest and being rude are not the same thing. I've been trying to get you to see this for many weeks now, but you just keep ignoring/denying it.

    And before you ask me for an example (as you invariably do), let me just say that calling someone a d-bag is rude and insulting. If you deny that, ask yourself this, if someone called you a d-bag would you consider it rude and insulting? How we say something is every bit as important as what we say.

    -- Posted by Preacher Man Fan on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 1:18 PM
  • I know he considers it rude and insulting when I tell him that if he got a piece it would actually cheer him up some. Haha And I wasn't trying to sugarcoat it either.

    -- Posted by Simpleminds on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 2:06 PM
  • Rude people do not adhere to The Golden Rule, so ur wastn ur breath Preach. But i guess ya still gotta try....

    -- Posted by cirithungol17 on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 2:31 PM
  • That's what I do, Ciri.

    -- Posted by Preacher Man Fan on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 2:37 PM
  • Carry on!!

    -- Posted by cirithungol17 on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 6:15 PM
  • But in reality isn't a d-bag actually refreshing and cleansing, maybe Boogin finds the poster's viewpoint refreshing when he call them that

    -- Posted by Uwe Blab on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 6:44 PM
  • I hope not Uwe.

    -- Posted by Preacher Man Fan on Mon, Oct 6, 2014, at 7:25 PM

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