High School Football Forum: Teams forfeiting games vs. Privates in STL

Posted by Bogey Man on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 10:48 AM:

Good thread going on MOSports that is almost comical. Teams are forfeiting games vs. Trinity and Lutheran North in St. Louis, claiming to have too many injuries to field a squad. Trinity was unheard of as a football school until they hired the coach 3 yrs ago that also happens to run the Junior Football League in the city of St. Louis. Suddenly, Trinity now has 6 of the top 15 junior recruits in Missouri, all sources are saying went to public grade schools. Lutheran North is loaded as well. Not sure, but both are either Class 2 or 3. Not many rural Class 2 or 3 teams with 6 DI recruits on their team. LOL And lots of transfers to privates being granted hardships to not have to sit out 365 days. Reportedly, the latest scam is to check the box under reason for transferring as "felt unsafe at previous school", and MSHSAA grants hardship.

There's nothing in MSHSAA rules about forfeiting games. Guess it was time for some schools to make a statement and get MSHSAA's attention. Hilarious situation right now unfolding.

Replies (64)

  • Just checked, both are Class 2 and in the same district. Good luck SEMO area Class 2 teams.

    -- Posted by Bogey Man on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 10:55 AM
  • Yea played Trinity last year they were loaded with talent all over the field. Tough to beat teams with a loaded deck of cards.

    -- Posted by swampdaddy on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 12:07 PM
  • You just need to recruit better!

    -- Posted by blue recruiter on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 12:13 PM
  • MSHSAA don't care. Blue Springs team that won state a few years back blatantly disregarded the contact days policy and the trophy is still in their trophy case. In turn several other programs decided they don't have to follow those rules now either, including a couple in our area.

    -- Posted by RollGreenWave on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 12:53 PM
  • *

    Funny thing is they didn't schedule each other. Same class in the same district makes no sense. Lamar will show them how the game is played!!!!

    -- Posted by JustLoveTheGame on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 1:02 PM
  • I suspect Trinity to be much improved from last year. They are leaps and bounds better than 2 years ago. I think Lamar will eventually have trouble with them, sooner than later. Hopefully private schools get their own bracket. In hopes we can stop hearing about it and the playing field becomes closer to level.

    -- Posted by Pville.dawg on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 1:51 PM
  • should be two different divisions

    -- Posted by chsfan185 on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 2:23 PM
  • I heard St PiusX in Festus was found to be recruiting and the state ignored it.

    -- Posted by SEMOvbfan on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 4:37 PM
  • Well, Pius needs to recruit better, they arenít better than ďgoodĒ at anything.

    -- Posted by ThadCastle on Thu, Oct 12, 2017, at 8:43 PM
  • Last year's game was quite close (in my opinion) and showed that a talented team beats a team of talented players. Their sportsmanship from the boys, to the parents, to the coachs was sad. It's one thing for a player to be disrespectful, but it's another to see adults. This was a win that meant even more as they were convinced they would win. It will be interesting to see how the game between Lutheran and Trinity will go as they are in the same district.

    -- Posted by LHSTigerFan on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 1:03 AM
  • -- Posted by Tim Riggins on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 8:53 AM
  • Just getting ready to post same article Tim. In all fairness, note that Priory and Dubourg are private schools that have forfeited to Lutheran North and Trinity.

    BUT article does confirm rumor going around earlier in the week - after St. Charles informed Trinity that they were forfeiting, St. Charles then contacted Normandy, asking Normandy to game vs. Lutheran North, AND THEN Normandy play St. Charles instead tonight. Normandy would not comment for the article.

    -- Posted by Bogey Man on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 8:58 AM
  • In the article he states that he coached junior league and these players want to play for him, he doesn't have to "chase" them, doesn't that prove they are transferring for athletics and should have to sit out a year?

    -- Posted by OnTheProwl on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 10:09 AM
  • *

    'St. Charles attempting to play Normandy instead of Trinity would challenge the argument that St. Charles is too injured to play.

    ďI think itís because we are an all-African-American team with an African -American coach,Ē Reed said of forfeits.'

    Shame on this coach...the replacement is Normandy a team with *gasp* predominantly black players and coaches. Same can be said for another team going ahead and playing Cardinal Ritter but not them...Ritter another team that's predominantly? Yep, black.

    It's not your team's skin color it's the fact that your program is known to be blantantly cheating. And you're a private school. If teams not feeling safe is the issue wouldn't this be more of an issue with the predominantly black public schools like Riverview Gardens, Vashon, Normandy? What a moron and a disgrace to coaches. You're supposed to set an example for your players...is the example you want to set is to cry racism when something doesn't go their way?

    -- Posted by WWE Guru on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 10:52 AM
  • semovbfan- Pius had multiple schools with a ton of evidence to prove that they were recruiting kids from the area schools. State kept pushing it back and once summer hit it was basically forgotten about and now they are back at it

    -- Posted by Rowdy09 on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 11:09 AM
  • WWE - how do you prove "recruiting?" and what constitutes recruiting or "undue influence?" If Patterson coached these 6 DI recruits as middle schoolers in a recreational league, gets hired as head coach at Trinity, and makes a suggestion to them or their families on attending high school at Trinity, is that recruiting? Many privates have summer camps for any athlete entering high school - is that recruiting? Now if discounts on tuition is being offered, then I would say 'Yes" that if proof of recruiting. And has anyone very been found guilty of recruiting by MSHSAA besides Floyd Irons, who left a paper trail of paid expenses for players.

    Recruiting is thrown around a lot of this and MOSports, but it is very hard to prove unless a kid or parent comes right out and say "yes my coach did this or that so I would attend his school". Now who is going to do that?

    -- Posted by Bogey Man on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 11:34 AM
  • Biggest issue we've got going here is that the blatant recruiting is typically reserved for the big guys(CBC, Vianney and the likes) when u take those high caliber athletes and say hey we're gonna go drop down to class 2 ball, the smaller communities are gonna be irked. MSHSAA isn't going to do anything about it, therefore the schools up that way have decided that they can take matters into their own hands and just won't play them

    -- Posted by Bill Shakespeare on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 11:48 AM
  • *

    This is just a question for you semo people. We hear year in, year out here in south central mo, that Valle Catholic recruits. Does this have truth to it?

    -- Posted by libertyeaglefan on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 3:31 PM
  • I would say no on Valle recruiting, beyond getting a kid from SG here and there, there is virtually no unexpected talent that comes through. Where they getcha is their new weight facility has a field turf area to it. Perfect for all year round drill work

    -- Posted by Sammy Langhorne on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 3:58 PM
  • One way to get around most of the problems mentioned here is to maybe tell the public schools AD not to schedule any private schools. I don't think there is any MSHAA rule that says you have to. It doesn't appear MSHAA is going to do anything about these problems anytime soon.

    -- Posted by pmstewert420 on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 8:37 PM
  • *

    Even if there are no violations with the accusations/complaints it wouldn't be a bad idea for MSHSAA to look into it just to clear these two schools names.

    -- Posted by WWE Guru on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 8:54 PM
  • I could go on and on about private schools. I guess the one good thing about them is we can all trash talk each other on here all day long, but at the end of the day, at least we can all agree the catholic schools should sport their own districts.

    In regards to what some of you are asking about recruitment, the next time you play a catholic school, check the program for junior high school listings. Last time I did this I was able to find approximately half the team was from MORE THAN AN HOUR FROM THE SCHOOL originally. I wish I could underline that.

    -- Posted by EaglesBoi on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 9:15 PM
  • Valle Catholic does not recruit !! And if St. Pius recruits they need to learn how to better because St. Pius got smoked tonight by Valle Catholic!

    -- Posted by blue blue on Fri, Oct 13, 2017, at 11:58 PM
  • *

    I can tell you our teams in SEMO like Caruthersville, Valle, Malden would still play them, D1 players or not. May not win, but we look at it as a learning, getting better experience. I'd love to see Cville schedule Trinity or Lutheran North. We've played some very good teams the last several years. Valle, SG, Lamar, Mountain View Liberty. I wouldn't blame the other teams though if they didn't want to play them. Maybe one day, MSHSAA will open their eyes to this issue and something will get done.

    -- Posted by Cheesehead. on Sat, Oct 14, 2017, at 12:17 AM
  • Playing MICDS today! Hope to win one for the public's.

    -- Posted by F.O.P on Sat, Oct 14, 2017, at 5:14 AM
  • Bogey Man, I must be missing something somewhere in your comments. What is so "hillarious, funny" about the situation you described happening in St Louis and our own Class 2 schools?

    -- Posted by mule67 on Sat, Oct 14, 2017, at 7:02 AM
  • WWE Guru, I agree from what I have read. Why stir up this race crap with every other word out of someone's mouth about sports and any skin color advantage or disadvantage. Most times there is no "race card", whatever that is, to draw.

    -- Posted by mule67 on Sat, Oct 14, 2017, at 7:17 AM
  • I guess "bizarre" would be a better description. I did read some additional info off Mosports that can shed some more light on this situation.

    Yesterday, St. Charles West released a press release with an explanation. In mid Sept., Lutheran North contacted St Charles West about forfeiting a softball game because LN did not have enough players. LN suggested that St C West contact another school to play instead because LN was also going to forfeit to them, so all schools agreed. They also stated that St. C West had 10 lineman injured and only 5 available lineman to play Trinity and they would have to play both ways. They were concerned about the safety of their players playing both ways against a high caliber opponent. So just as they had done in softball, St. Charles West thought that they would try to make a switch in the schedule, so they contacted Normandy, a lesser opponent who was scheduled to play Lutheran North, and try to switch opponent for this week, with St. Charles West playing Normandy and Trinity playing Lutheran North. Trinity refused because LN is a district opponent and didn't want to play them again in just a couple weeks. St. Charles West thought that since it was OK to make the switch in softball, it would not be a big deal to switch in football. I guess the 5 lineman would be OK playing both ways against a lesser opponent. They denied that race had any bearing with the decision.

    Another point that has people upset is the players that have transferred to Trinity and Lutheran North that were granted hardships and not required to sit out 365 days. The poster who started the thread on Mosports had all the inside scoop. In 2016, 3 skill position players (and he used their names since they are on national recruiting lists) transferred to Trinity and were immediately eligible. In 2017, the second leading rusher from Class 5 Hazelwood West and the leading rusher from Class 4 Vashon both transferred to Lutheran North, granted hardships and immediately eligible. How can MSHSAA ever allow this is beyond belief, when it should be obvious that they all transferred for athletic reasons, no matter what was written on the hardship request.

    One poster also stated that he counted the number of players from last year's roster and this year's roster at Trinity, a small Class 2 team mind you, and this year's team has 16 new players.

    So I guess what is "funny" is MSHSAA is allowing these players to transfer to a better team without any consequences. The flood gates are open.....anything goes!!!!

    -- Posted by Bogey Man on Sat, Oct 14, 2017, at 7:54 AM
  • *

    Well, I assume there are a number of Trinity fans trolling this forum, so I will throw this out there for you to fret over till the day we play; Lamar isn't losing any sleep over the thought of having to match up with you again. Not trying to be disrespectful, it just seems that everyone wants to hand the state trophy over before the game is played. We will show up, be polite, play with character, and we will see who the better football team is. For what it is worth, we aren't going to worry about the recruiting. Fact of the matter is this...until MSHSSA decides to do something about it, then the game has to be played. Recruiting or no, if it takes a team of Class 4 transfers, who are high level D1 prospects, to beat us; we will move on and not give it another thought. Classes were developed to create like competition, if this is undermined by deceitful practices; it is not a reflection on our team. It will always be a reflection on the others.

    -- Posted by Frototheheadhunter on Sun, Oct 15, 2017, at 6:57 PM
  • Yep, what he said. 👆

    -- Posted by OnTheProwl on Sun, Oct 15, 2017, at 9:01 PM
  • MSHSSA are a bunch of idiots obviously!

    -- Posted by Oldschool15 on Sun, Oct 15, 2017, at 9:19 PM
  • What headhunter said.

    -- Posted by ThadCastle on Mon, Oct 16, 2017, at 1:45 PM
  • No way im forfeiting a game there are only 9 to begin with. Take you but whooping like a man and move on. Eventually trinity and lutheren will have down years and they will be getting their butts whooped....You don't cancel a game period. I played games with 4 lineman...you put a couple LBs or TEs in a 50 or 60 number stick him at tackle and play. you do not forfeit PERIOD. Just like a few years ago Malden put up 60+ on everybody nobody down here cried and forfeited we are just waiting for them to have a down year and we will put up 60+ us on them....

    NO FORFEITING

    -- Posted by SouthEspn on Mon, Oct 16, 2017, at 3:36 PM
  • Kennett vs Lutheran North,Trinity ,Cardinal Ritter or John Burroughs

    Cville vs. Lutheran North,Trinity,Cardinal Ritter or John Burroughs

    Hayti vs Cardinal Ritter

    These would be good matchups

    -- Posted by Kennett fan on Mon, Oct 16, 2017, at 9:35 PM
  • Kennett fan,kennett or cville but most especially kennett would not be a good game with LN,or Trinity

    -- Posted by Ramfanman on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 7:13 AM
  • Cville and Kennett could combine and LN and Trinity would still beat them by 5 Td's

    -- Posted by Coachken on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 7:54 AM
  • Cool, Ken.

    -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 8:09 AM
  • CBC, Vianney, Trinity, Desmet, etc all recruit. Anyone arguing against this has no idea. I have seen it first hand and taken part in it when I taught at a private school. It is happening all over STL. I can't speak for Pius but Valle and SV don't necessarily recruit but are able to have students attend their school from all areas. Notre Dame(Cape) although they don't have football they have kids attend their school from 8-10 different zip codes. Whether they go out and recruit these kids is beyond me. I used to be against separating private and public but after seeing how bad STL private schools come in and take athletes away from public schools who cannot do anything about it makes me re-think.

    -- Posted by Tim Riggins on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 9:39 AM
  • I don't disagree with any of the comments above, but if your gonna call out city private schools - what about the ones down here like Valle, Cape ND, etc... Who also have kids flow in from outside in different sports - Just saying.

    Fact of the matter is Schools are gonna do whatever they can get away with to win because winning builds more exposure. Until MSHSAA does something - it won't change.

    -- Posted by thatDude on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 9:55 AM
  • Not a Valle guy....but when does Valle have kids "flow" in.

    -- Posted by Coachken on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 11:08 AM
  • Coachken, also not a Valle guy. I've had a parent tell me flat out the reverse has happened in SG, the PUBLIC school coach talked to his son to come to SG instead going to Valle.

    -- Posted by mojo3 on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 11:38 AM
  • Smaller private schools like Valle and SV are taking the students they can get. Both are down in enrollment compared to years past. Its the bigger private schools in STL that really do the recruiting. They have to recruit. They have to convince kids and parents to spend a ton of money over free public education plus they are recruiting against the other private schools. Anyone that says it doesn't happen is crazy.

    -- Posted by Tim Riggins on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 11:44 AM
  • I would try to have the best recruiter possible. Why not, as long as it's within the rules. But apparently, there are no more rules. And that's a shame. Time to split public and private and let them fight it out.

    -- Posted by Forrest Gump on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 12:08 PM
  • In the case of a Valle, I actually think it's the opposite. I would not be surprised if they limited their enrollment to a certain extent to maintain their current classifications in sports like football, baseball and volleyball. Just an opinion.

    -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 1:04 PM
  • ozzyandharriet that is the craziest thing I have heard yet. Very, very funny though.

    -- Posted by blue recruiter on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 1:10 PM
  • oh come on, bluey. I said it was just my opinion. I have no idea. I don't think Valle is out recruiting like crazy. Their programs recruit themselves. But the idea of limiting enrollment, although you're probably right in that they don't, isn't that far fetched.

    -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 1:39 PM
  • trust me, they want the extra kids.

    -- Posted by blue recruiter on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 2:11 PM
  • Private schools also can keep 79% boys and avoid having to automatically double enrollment.That's one reason for the 35% multiplier. And yes, "most " take advantage of this. But we can't research it because private schools won't allow someone to do so. Nor the financials of the school to see who is getting a full ride! At least that's how it used to be.

    -- Posted by Forrest Gump on Tue, Oct 17, 2017, at 2:32 PM
  • ozzyandharriet

    Your opinion is correct I don't care what the Valle guys say lol....If I'm growing up in St. Gen and I play fball I want to go to Valle to win a ring PERIOD. I'm sure there are plenty of boys that want to go to Valle that cannot get in so they can stay class 1. As big as St. Gen is Valle could easily be Class 2 or bigger but they limit that enrollment to stay class 1 and nobody can tell be otherwise.

    Valle does not have to go and recruit THEY ARE VALLE but they turn kids down which is definitely an advantage over public schools.

    -- Posted by SouthEspn on Wed, Oct 18, 2017, at 9:54 AM
  • I understand the debate on recruiting, etc. but what bothers me most (and I'm not sure why) is that Lutheran North's football coaching staff calls themselves "Scholarship High." And no, they don't mean academic or private scholarships --they're talking about athletic (more specifically, football) scholarships.

    -- Posted by PimpDaddyTaddy on Wed, Oct 18, 2017, at 10:00 AM
  • For the 1,000,001 time, Valle does not recruit or turn kids away, or do anything to keep enrollment numbers down. I can guarantee anyone that they would love to have more students paying more tuition. And I am a Ste. Gen. guy. The ongoing rumor/joke around Ste. Gen. for as long as I can remember is that they are always 1 or 2 years away from closing the doors because they are going broke. Ask a Valle parent sometime how much money their teachers are making compared to Ste. Gen. public. You would be shocked at how little Valle pays their teachers compared to any public school. That's why so many teachers from Valle over the years end up at Ste. Gen. public - the pay is better. Anyone who says they turn away students absolutely 100% don't know what they are talking about.

    I hear ya, PimpDaddy. But again, nothing illegal about privates offering financial incentives for athletes. And tuitions vary greatly - Valle is in the $3-4K range per year last time I asked someone with kids there, whereas some of the elites, i.e. CBC, Desmet, MICDS are in the $20K range per year. So the elite schools can give scholarships for $5K but parents are still on the hook for $15K. I actually have a niece at an all girls private in STL, and good volleyball player. I asked if she got any "scholarship" money, and yes she does, $500 off of a $15,000 per year tuition. Woo Hoo!! I would just about guess that even the best athletes at the big elite private schools are all paying the majority of their tuition tab.

    -- Posted by Bogey Man on Wed, Oct 18, 2017, at 11:54 AM
  • Money definitely talks so I'm inclined to think that my opinion is probably not true. I would think that finances at Valle are probably fairly tight.

    -- Posted by ozzyandharriet on Wed, Oct 18, 2017, at 12:14 PM
  • mojo3, seems funny/odd that SG would have to recruit kids "in their own district" to come there!

    -- Posted by semo7178 on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 8:06 AM
  • Does anybody still like to compete? I'm sure there are some fishy things going on but man... Never thought things would get this serious. Forfeiting games, really? I'm not that far removed from high school, I remember having to play against schools like this is fball and bball. My coaches were the type of guys to run you in the ground if they heard you mention unfairness of the situation/games.

    Reality check... nothing in this life is fair. I know that may be difficult to understand for some, but if you live life across the tracks, one of the first things you learn is that life isn't fair. NOW, that doesn't make it right to not follow and abide by the rules. BUT, as the opposition, that's not your job to convict the other team of cheating. Your job is to break down film, figure out tendencies, and prepare your team to the best of your abilities. Let mshhaa handle all of that elgibility stuff, even if they don't do a great job at it. Frankly, it sounds real weak that coaches have been deciding not to play that game. Can't help but feel like there are players on those teams that wanted the challenge. They may have known they would be beat, but they wanted to see what they were made of. It's hard to believe that all players on a team are patting their coaches on the back from saving them from an "unfair" matchup. What everybody is saying about these schools, I'm sure is very similar to what NFL teams say about the Patriots. Accept those difficult challenges, those are the ones that mold you for life!!

    -- Posted by 24/7 champ on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 8:39 AM
  • ^^^^^I like this guy!

    -- Posted by blue recruiter on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 8:43 AM
  • 24/7 Champ, really? You think cheating ACTUAL cheating is the same or equalivant to the rumors of New England? Your coach was trying to keep your head up. Thatís not really a excuse for actually doing something wrong. Do you apply that to all of life? Were you a outraged Trump supporter when Hillary was accusing Trump of having Russia Aid his victory, and it was rigged because she won the popular vote? For one of many examples? Just because bad things happen, doesnít mean you turn a blind eye to all things that could be prevented from happening. Thatís truly stupid. Regardless of how well my analogy is understood. You get the point. Come on now.

    -- Posted by Mofootballfan23 on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 9:36 AM
  • The only part that you stated that correct is the forfeit. Thatís not a proper solution to their anger. If thatís truly why they did.

    -- Posted by Mofootballfan23 on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 9:37 AM
  • Mofootballfan

    1. I most definitely am not a Trump/Hillary supporter, or even keep up with politics much for that matter. All I know is that Trump curses a lot, says rude things, and doesn't like sports. Haha . I'm sure Hillary isn't better but... anyway

    2. I agree, your analogy was very difficult to understand. I went to college but obviously I wasn't an English major. Your rhetoric went right over my head. That's my bad.

    3. The point I was trying to make with New England is that somebody is always going to have the upper hand in life. And sometimes that's not you. But you have to deal with it. What is griping/complaining about it on message boards really going to do? Voice your frustration? I'm sure mshhaa is reviewing our posts, on the brink of suspending all schools involved, right?

    4. DEAL WITH IT! Like I've already said, life is not fair. Never will be. As much as you want people to play fair and by the rules, it will never happen. We may as well get over it and start teaching our football teams to beat those heavily favored teams. My coaches weren't trying to keep my head up lol they had high expectations and expected success regardless of who lined up across from us.

    -- Posted by 24/7 champ on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 11:20 AM
  • I get your point and agree they shouldn't forfeit, play the game and give it your best. but also don't turn a blind eye to the corruption - I believe famous quote says ďThe only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.Ē

    -- Posted by thatDude on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 11:29 AM
  • Corruption??

    There are many corrupt things that go on in this country that gets a blind eye turned toward it. I could rant but won't. But the corruption in this country is killing people. While "good men" do nothing. Evil triumphs when innocent people get killed, not when a coach recruits football players to, possibly, give them a better future. Even if they cheat, call it cheating or unfairness or whatever... I'm not going to dare compare it to corruption. High School football corrupt, unbelievable.

    -- Posted by 24/7 champ on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 11:42 AM
  • Valle doesn't need to recruit. The local paper does enough of that for them! ha

    -- Posted by Green & Blue on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 3:45 PM
  • You can never have enough pages of pictures celebrating National String Cheese Day.

    -- Posted by Bogey Man on Thu, Oct 19, 2017, at 7:17 PM
  • 24/7 - corruption in the simplest definition is: dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power.

    Your talking about totally different things when you speak of violence/killing - that's just evil. So your telling me there are no dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power within the confines of high school football? wake up, its there, it has always been there, it will always be there. - the point of this thread is people are tired of it and looking for a solution to it - best of luck to them!

    -- Posted by thatDude on Fri, Oct 20, 2017, at 11:12 AM
  • 24/7

    The answer to wrong doing isnít to just let it go if something can be done. You are not very intelligent on this matter. Sorry sir. Move along now.

    -- Posted by Mofootballfan23 on Sat, Oct 21, 2017, at 9:24 AM

Respond to this thread

Posting a comment requires free registration: