It's time to completly blow up the SEMO Christmas Tournament. Every year i hear that it's the "premier" tournament in the area. But if it's so "premier" then why are teams like Delta, Meadow Heights, and Woodland in the tournament? To me, it's a complete joke that these schools among others get to play in the show me center and get killed year after year while teams like Siketon, Kennett, Portageville, even Saxony show that they can provide better competition and talent. Send Delta to some JV tournament and let some real teams play in the area's "premier" tournament, cause right now this tournament is a joke.
I really wish people would understand that nothing is happening to this tournament. There is no one school, like Bloomfield, who controls who stays and who goes. If they don't want a school in their tournament all they have to do is not invite them back.
The SEMO Christmas tournament is controlled by all the superintendents of the participating schools, each year they take turns being the de facto school in charge, even though Mitch Wood is the tournament director. The only way a team can be kicked out is if they are voted out by the other superintendents. THAT IS NEVER Going to happen. The schools make a decent chunk of change off the tournament and they see no reason for change. The supers don't care that Sikeston or Bluff or whoever might make the tournament more competitive from top to bottom.
It's hard to pick who should stay and go as Bell City just won this tournament less than 10 years ago and Kelly was in the finals within that span too. It's a great tournament for what it is, quit worrying about what it is not.
Really, give it up. This tournament is like family. You don't choose your family. The teams in it now are family and no one is going to be kicked out. It's not about the best tournament or best teams. It's our "hometown" tournament. A little piece of local heaven in December.
So you're telling me that you'd rather have Delta or Woodland in this tournament over Sikeston or someone much more competitive (or just competitive at all)? Sure, it's my "hometown" tournament and frankly to have teams like that in it is really embarassing.
And its really not that hard to pick who stays and who goes.
Stay - Charleston, Cape, ND, Jackson, SCC, SC, Advance.
These schools are annually in the top 10 somewhere. The rest of the schools have a good team once every 10-15 years.
grizz....read and comprehend what asdf1234 said in the initial response to your post; until a majority (or possibly super-majority) of the superintendents vote to expel a team, they're going nowhere
Alright you've given me 7 teams to stay, now ill add sikeston in so that's 8, now you must give me 8 more teams for the tournament. Go
*Face in palms*
Adding a Perryville, Crystal City Ste. Genevieve, Sikeston, NMCC, Caruthersville, Senath-Hornersville or all of them might help. But people may be right that it will never happen.
Perhaps the idea of an eight-team bracket for the small schools and 16-team bracket for everyone else might work. There are enough courts in Cape Girardeau to play all the first round games somewhere.
I could even see a scenario where all 24 teams would be seeded each year with the top 16 going into the 16-team bracket.
Perryville, Crystal City, and Ste Genivieve would get run out of the gym most years. JUST LIKE the teams that are already there.. I cannot speak for the bootheel teams.
Dustin,Perryville,crystal city,and st.genevieve are in the park hills tourney and none of those three won anything up there might help for the middle to bottom but not going to help the top end i don't think!
If the smaller schools, the ones you claim don't stand a chance, don't mind playing in it, why should you?
If you don't want to watch, don't go.
Personally, I don't want Sikeston in the Cape Christmas tourney. They play Charleston, Notre Dame, Cape Central, and Jackson at least once and sometimes three times each season already and wouldn't be guaranteed to play whoever was the "it" team out of the SEMO Conference each year (SCC most of the time) in the tourney. I prefer that they play out of area schools at an out of area tournament to do a little preparing for playoff time. I also appreciate the tradition that the Cape Christmas tournament embraces. If you want top competition, go watch the SEMO Conference tournament. If you want tradition, then go to the Cape Christmas tourney. Let's not try to make the Cape tourney the inflated SEMO Conference tourney.
OK Grizz, I'll bite. To make a more competitive tourny, kick out Charleston. That would open this tournament up a bunch. Case closed.
I wouldn't really want NMCC in the tournament either. I like seeing them play teams like Corinth, MS and Chester Co.
Streaks come and go. Bell City and Advance have won the tournament in the past. Some of the teams I have listed are traditionally going to be better than the small schools. Not always the case. Most years the tournament at Cape Girardeau is pretty good. This year the Bloomfield Tournament was better. But like I said before that hasn't always been the case.
This tournament is about tradition first. Case closed IMO. Also MSHSAA does not allow more than a 16 team bracket and you cannot by rule play two eight team tourneys and have the winners play for an overall championship. Because of scheduling difficulties it would not be feasible to rank the top teams in the area and they have them play each other in a tournament. It would not be logical. Both Christmas tournaments past the usual first day mismatches are fun for most involved and can be a boost to them financially. We need to quit beating a dead horse because it is what it is.
Cape, Jackson, ND, and Charleston. Those are the 4 "big schools" in the tournament. Then you have a bunch of schools that for years were 1A/2A schools. You want to kick those schools out? Well if you kick out Leopold you're kicking out one of the best teams in the bracket. Same goes for Oran and Advance. You say keep them? Well Leopold was the 15 seed up there a few years ago. Like Bell City was this year. So you want to kick out Bell City? They won the whole tournament a few years back. You say keep SCC but they got blown out this year and were really terrible for about a 10 year stretch. This is what happens in a big school little school tournament. It's a great thing because when a little school makes a run it is awesome to watch. Just like Dexter winning the Bloomfield tournament like 6 years in a row, now this year they lost two games in a row and were out of the tournament. You want to kick them out of the Bloomfield? Or Kennett who has won 3 years in a row before just losing to Holcomb well Kennett used to be one of the worst teams in the tournament. See it even happens with two Class 4 schools so when you have 16 teams in a bracket with mostly small schools this is just going to happen.
It's not changing and I'm perfectly fine with that. It would be cool if some bootheel teams got in it though. Nobody, big school wise, up here really gets to see them and there is always talk of how well they would compete with the semo conference schools.
An interesting idea would be whoever finishes in the bottom 2 is kicked out each year and allowed to re enter after a couple years. This would allow for an increase in overall talent and a refreshment of teams. It won't happen, but it'd be interesting.
I would love to see NMCC, Caruthersville, Clearwater, and Risco added to one or the other Christmas tournaments in the area, but it's prolly never going to happen. Best chance is at Bloomfield as they shake up their brackets every few years. Holcomb replaced East Carter County about four years ago at the BCT. Change is not unheard of either at Cape as I remember when Egyptian played in that tournament back in the 1980's.
Dustin- once again your 4.0 leaves a lot of intelligence on the table. I said those teams would be the same as the ones already in there as far as long term competitiveness. And none of the three that you listed and I know much about are traditionally even good. PHS and CC had nice years within the last 2 but prior to that are nothing to behold. Same of SG
Folks, Charleston is not a "large" school, anymore; as for Christmas tourney teams, Scott City is larger, Woodland is larger, Kelly is the same size. So, Charleston is just in the middle of the pack insofar as high school enrollment is concerned. Charleston's not even the largest school in Mississippi County, anymore - East Prairie is.
bird, I think joefrank meant that if Charleston was not in the tournament it would be more competitive. Not based on enrollment but on talent.
Larry....bootheelhooper referred to Charleston as a "large" school...that's what I was responding to.
That is, if you use the word "large" as being synonomous with "big"....maybe he wasn't
I'm bored so I went on MSHSAA web site to look at these 16 enrollment a just to kill time.
1. Jackson Jackson 1504
2. Central Cape Girardeau 1193
3. Notre Dame Cape Girardeau 747** Adjusted
4. Scott City Scott City 299
5. Woodland Marble Hill 276
6. Charleston Charleston 274
7. Kelly Benton 274
8. Chaffee Chaffee 204
9. Meadow Heights Patton 179
10. Advance Advance 136
11. Oran Oran 125
12. Oak Ridge Oak Ridge 116
13. Scott County Central Sikeston 113
14. Delta Delta 95
15. Bell City Bell City 65
16. Leopold Leopold 63
I think everyone just freaks out when you say Charleston, yes they are very good and could have been had if Jackson or keep Cape had a superior point guard. Word has it that Charleston talent level may not be so good in a couple years,what will be talking about then maybe gettin Charleston out of tourney ............? Just sayin it all runs cycles depending on the talent at each school.
sorry bird, I missed that.
Don't mean to hi-jack this thread, just wanted to ask BillShakespeare a couple of questions. Did St. Vincent win the Winter Warrior Classic and what is their record? Also, how did PHC do in their X-Mas tourney and do you know their record? I know they had a big win against South Iron recently.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
As a kid I played for a small school and can tell you there was no greater thrill than the Christmas tourney and getting to play on the "big stage".
Sure we knew we would get crushed on the first day but the hope for the next three days outweighed that by far.
What it means to the communities of these schools can not be measured.
Many of you have said that it is the tradition of this event that is most important and that is so true.
For that one year that a small school can make an impact it is worth the other years of hard times.
You said it, dadscatfood. The year Bell City won the title, Nick Niemcyk's grandmother was brought into the ShowMe Center in a wheelchair to witness the championship game. She was dying of cancer and this was probably one of the greatest gifts that she ever received, seeing her grandson and his Bell City Cubs win the coveted championship trophy. Perhaps only a once if a lifetime accomplishment for the Cubs but it sure paid dividends for that small community.
Adding the teams I have listed would improve attendance. Most of the teams I listed would beat the bottom four seeds in the tournament most years.
With this being said the entire arguement is pointless because there won't be anything happen with this tournament. It's possible one team leaves it to join Bloomfield if a team from Bloomfield heads to Clarkton next year. That's the only minor change I see taking place.
Gotta love talking in absolutes.
I still think if you wait five years we might be talking about the Bloomfield Tournament not being balanced instead. Streaks follow streaks.
I will add MSHSAA always had and always will have too many rules.
I could present an arguement we should elect officials to MSHSAA like we elect officials to school boards and government offices.
What an amazing story. Thanks for sharing that.
I echo the thoughts by dadscatfoot.
I also attending the final the year Bell City won it.
How many years was Dexter so good under legendary coach Paul Hale no team at Bloomfield could compete with them?
Preach- We are in the championship, with the snow some of the teams couldn't make it so were playing Valle this Saturday at 3:30. We open conference against Crystal Friday having beat them twice, we're 7-1 only loss to Leopold. As for PHC they are playing some good ball right now, the Friday before the tournament they beat Hillsboro who was previously unbeaten, then actually won the Christmas Tournament as a 7 seed beating Farmington in the championship, as for there exact record I'm not sure!!
Thanks Bill. Appreciate the updates! Good luck against Valle this Saturday. I wasn't aware they had delayed the game until then.
What's the schedule for Saturday. I need something to do.
MSHSAA may have a lot of rules, but guess who makes them? Answer, each area of the state has a representative, and every school has a vote. Rules are because of those that violate, not those that have integrity. But that is probably another discussion.
Looks to me like some schools get crushed twice in a row and are out just like that.
If we're reflecting on years when we all played, I can tell when i played i didn't care where i was playing, winning was the only thing that mattered. Frankly, if i was a bottom end seed consistently and got slaughtered every year i'd be embarrased by it. Playing on the "big stage" would only make it worse.
and for the record I played in the Show-Me Center so i know what that feels like.
The volleyball and softball tournaments should be treated just like the state basketball tournament. My assessment is that is not currently the case.
MSHSAA provides very inaccurate stats for the state volleyball tournament and I once witnessed MSHSAA officials making fun of a parent after he questioned why a team's setter didn't have any assists in a state playoff game.
Good point, but I respectfully disagree.
From what I read in the paper about Delta, they have a young man trying to play this year with a torn up knee just because he wants to be a part of the team and not miss his last chance to play ball.
That is what high school ball and this tournament is, or at least should be, all about.
I think some schools might have as good of an experience in another tournament they might have a shot to hit a game-winning shot in the final 30 seconds of regulation.
But I'm not against your thoughts regarding Delta. I'm a big small-school advocate.
Every sport should receive equal treatment. It's not all about football or basketball semoref.
I certainly agree with your thoughts that they may be more competitive in another tourney.
That would definitely be better for the kids than a blowout two straight days.
Just not sure where they would be able to go for the same amount of exposure, and let's face it, money, as they can in this event.
Not to mention the history of their schools, where the kids parents and maybe grandparents played in this same event.
The money is a factor. However, would utilitarianism not be the best way to determine which teams are allowed to enter the tournament?
I could also argue a utilitarian might be in favor of electing MSHSAA officals by popular vote of all voting citizens in Missouri.
With this being said as a utilitarian I'm not sure I could ever vote Bell City out knowing the history of that program. It's a special program.
I maintain give it five years and everything will be balanced again at Cape Girardeau.
I agree about MSHSAA but when it comes to the history of this tournament I am a traditionalist.
Yes, I played in this tourney when it was still held in Houck.
Talk about an intense environment!
No fan was much farther away that than where the middle of the "closest" seats are now.
I'm a traditionalist also most of the time.
You are correct. We all must have change to grow.
I looked back at some of your earlier ideas and understand what you are saying.
where can i find replay of day 4 of the cape Christmas tourney.
on cover it live it just has the start of the Jackson v. ND game but it is really broken up.
will the rest of that game and the championship game be available.
The NCAA put in a rule just a year or so ago that would eliminate out of area teams playing in the tournament. Since the Show Me Center is an NCAA Division 1 arena, there is some kind of newer rule about how far away a team can come from to play in it. I'm not claiming to know all the details, but there;s definitely a rule about teams from out of the area (I think you have to be within 60 miles or something like that) playing in a D1 arena.
The Cape Shootout this Saturday, they can't have that in the Show Me Center if they ever wanted to, nor could they ever have a Riverbend type of event there either. The Show Me Center wouldn't be allowed to host such an event by the NCAA.
The exception to the rule is the actual state tournament -- like a Regional or the volleyball Final 4. They can host that, but not just a regular season thing like the Shootout or the Riverbend.
Dustin - let's use Bell City for discussion only. Why does the assumption have to be that Bell City would NEVER be invited to come back? Why couldn't a tournament board or something get together and look at who will actually be competitive next year and go from there. Looking at their rosters, we know Oak Ridge will most likely be somewhat competitive next year, and that Bell City most likely won't be. Chaffee, with all of their young players, will most likely be improved next year too. Delta? Probably not. In 2013, invite Chaffee, not Delta, invite Oak Ridge not Bell City. Make Bell City show that there is some improvement and THEN invite them that year. Not inviting them one year, doesn't preclude them from EVER playing in it, does it?
The year Bell City won - everyone knew they were pretty good (and the two years prior also). The year Advance won - everyone knew they were pretty good. Everyone also knew Bell City wasn't going to be any good this year (sorry BC fans, just for arguments sake I'm using your school).
Just because you don't get invited one year, doesn't mean you can NEVER be invited again.
Most teams that don't get invited one year might not want back in when they are invitied in the future.
But I thought they made alot of money? And who would want to deny their players a chance at playing in such a prestigious event in such a large arena?
Isn't most of the talk for these school centered around how much money they get and how much exposure they get, and how cool it is for these kids to get to play in such an arena? Why would they turn that down??
You could take the bottom 4 teams out every year, the teams that go 0-2 are out for next year and replaced with 4 other teams. In 2013, the 4 schools that go 0-2 are out for 2014 and the 4 that missed 2013 are back in. And so on.
The 4 'other' teams next year could be Saxony Lutheran, St Vincent's, Perryville and Fredricktown. If those teams win a game next year, they come back.
You could have an ongoing pool of 20 teams for every other year basically, and you would play your way out of the tournament for a maximum of 1 year. Four teams out this year, replaced by the other four, then four more out next year replaced by the four that were out this year.
Deep thoughts PatK.
My dream Christmas tournament for this year. Would have been pretty sweet.
Might replace somebody with Bernie, forgot about Bernie.
I'm fine with this one as long as we get to play it at the Black River Colliseum in Poplar Bluff.
The Show Me Center is not a central location for the tournament Terry Hicks has created.
I don't know the answer to your question about Day 4. I don't cover that tournament. Sorry.
I agree with GRIZZFAN93, that it is time for a make over in the SEMO CHRISTMAS TOURNAMENT. The field has been the same all my life and im 34.I agree, let's turn it up!!!! It's time for the other teams that didn't make the list to test new waters, but no disrespect. I wonder what does a coach tell his team when they lose 129-16??
MY SEMO CHRISTMAS TOURNAMENT 2013:NO RANKING
JUST MY OPINION.
Just yesterday people were really arguing that PRIVATE SCHOOLS shouldn't play PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Well, perrinial powers like Charleston shouldn't be playing Oak Ridge,that's like UCLA playing Three Rivers.
Then again, let's give the small schools the SEMO CHRISTMAS TOURNAMENT.
MY SEMO CHRISTMAS TOURNAMENT 2013:
well i would like to come see the top talented players compete in this tournament. I remember come to watch frazier vs timmons and as i recall the place was packed. Now this tournament is very traditional my father in-law has been coming since he was a kid, but the past few years he opted out saying its not as strong as it use to be.
But i would love to come watch some of the top players from the bootheel play. Theres a South Pemiscot girl(Carrie Shepard) playing right now who is 5th in the country in scoring and number one in the state of missouri. Mt Carmel high school in IL has the 6th ranked scorer(Tyra Buss) in the nation both are girls. How exciting it would be to witness that kind of talent as well as the guard from kennett who is being recruited by a lot of colleges.
Now if these kids were playing in this tournament and there were a slew of college coaches here to see them play wouldn't that help other players get seen as well? Just my opinion....
I really like PatK's idea about the rotating pool. It would give the tournament a fresh look every year and give added motivation to win.
There is definitely a rule about teams from being out of the area playing in NCAA arenas now. Pretty sure South Pem, Doniphan, maybe even Poplar Bluff, etc would not be allowed to compete in the Show Me Center unless it was state tournament play. And forget about out of state teams that are further away, unless you want to hold the tournament in a different venue, because those schools aren't allowed to play at Semo's gym anymore.
These other tournaments across the state and around the country aren't held in D1 arenas, that's how they can do it.
What would you say on a rotation basis you have the final 4 made up from the last 2 teams from Bloomfield and Semo. It would give fans from both areas a chance to see other teams and get some good matches.
Can't happen MoArk. Some of the teams from the Bloomfield tournament would not be allowed to play in the Show Me Center.
Read Rachel's column it talks about this and she brings up some interesting points I think
Since the event is conducted by the local high schools and not a third party, the NCAA would allow it.
This rule does not allow any high school team regardless of proximity to the said venue from participating if it is organized by a third party.
From the NCAA-
"For purposes of Bylaw 184.108.40.206, a nonscholastic event is defined based on the entity or person conducting the event, not by the event participants. An event is not a scholastic event simply because the participating teams are high school teams but rather whether a scholastic entity is operating the event."
I wouldn't mind seeing Carbondale, Cairo, Massac County in it either if they really wanted to they could pull it off, hell Meramec is the best tournament in st louis and they switch it up constantly.
Attaboy - I'm almost positive there's another bylaw (I'll look it up later) that says for it to be considered a scholastic event, teams can only be from a certain distance away from the arena.
I know Memphis University High beat Edwardsvill IL at the Carbondal Holiday Tournament, which is played at the SIU Arena. They host teams from Chicago, St. Louis, and Tennesse at that tournament.
NMCC played in that tournament as well a couple years ago.
Guess I was wrong. Cool, now let's go back to talking about how some other schools can be in if they are good enough.
PatK, I really like your idea on rotating the schools that go 0-4. I hope the tournament director takes a close look at it.
Lets not talk about getting other teams in this tournament. Then this thread can stop and we could go on to a subject with a smidge of relevance.
If your looking for relevant discussion the internet is not the first place I would come to sir
Hurray for double post
If you want to see Elite High School Teams at premiere events then can I make a suggestion. A good friend of mine Steve Woodward puts on great events with nationally ranked teams with nationally ranked players on them. The nearest to the area would be the Marshall Co. Hoopfest over near Benton KY. Every year the event brings the top teams and the top talent year in and year out. Some of the great HS players that I have seen play there include Carmelo Anthony, Michael Beasley, Shannon Brown, DeSagana Diop, Kevin Durrant, Monta Ellis, Shawn Livingston, Rajon Rondo, Josh Smith, Derek Rose, Frank Williams, Brandon Wright, Julian Wright, Tyler Hansbrough, Ben Hansbrough, Ty Lawson, Nolan Smith, Brandon Jennings.
Steve is longer the AD there, but has moved on to put on other HOOPFEST, in Memphis The Penny Hardaway Hoopfest, and the Memphis Braggin' Rights. Both of these showcases have had elite players. This year Penny Hardaway Hoopfest
2013 Penny Hardaway's Hoop Fest Schedule
White Station High School
Saturday, January 12th, 2013
1:00 PM Memphis Ridgeway
(TN) vs Sunrise Christian (KS)
2:30 PM Arlington Country Day (FL) vs Memphis Hamilton (TN)
4:00 PM Ft. Walton Beach (FL) vs Memphis Briarcrest
5:30 PM Memphis White Station (TN) vs Chicago Whitney Young (IL)
7:00 PM Finlay Prep (NV) vs Memphis Melrose
8:30 PM Chicago Simeon (IL) vs Memphis Southwind (TN)
#2 Findlay Prep 17-0
#6 Whitney Young 6-1
#8 Southwind 10-3
#11 Simeon 4-1
National Players to watch
#2 (2013) Jabari Parker 6'8 220 Simeon DUKE
#13 (2013) Auston Nicols 6'8 200 Briarcrest MEMPHIS
#37 (2013) Johnathan Williams III 68 208 Southwind MISSOURI
#50 (2013) Nigel Williams-Goss 6'3 180 Findlay Prep WASHINGTON
#54 (2013) Allerik Freeman 6'3 205 Findlay Prep UCLA
#58 (2013) Standford Robinson 6'4 175 Findlay Prep INDIANA
#59 (2013) Kendrick Nunn 6'2 175 Simeon ILLINOIS
#63 (2013) Christian Wood 6'9 200 Findlay Prep UNLV
#64 (2013) JaJuan Johnson 6'5 185 Southwind MARQUETTE
#2 (2014) Jahil Okafor 6'9 279 Whitney Young
#11 (2014) Leon Black 6'7 215 White Station BAYLOR
#53 (2014) L.J. Peak 6'4 200 Whitney Young
#55 (2014) Paul White 6'8 185 Whitney Young
#13 (2015) K.J. Lawson 6'5 185 Melrose
#23 (2015) D.J. Willaims 6'5 185 Simeon
He is also putting on another one in Las Vegas.
There is also the Bass Pro Tournament of Champions in Springfield MO in mid Jan.
There is also Flyin' to the Hoop in Dayton, Ohio.
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